Re: 0-72 Minimum curve layout ideas for a smaller space (2024)

Ken-Oscale posted:

Curving the coach yard tracks adds room for one more car: 11 coaches.

The variations are definitely something to think about. I think I might stick with the original plan because the 45 degree crossing makes it a bit more interesting imho (not that the variations are boring at all).

As others have said, you are really good at track plans. If it's alright with you, I would love to refer anyone who has track plan questions to you. Every once in a while we get people who come into the shop looking for FasTrack, but have no clear track plan.

After a bit of optimizing to reduce the number of sections, and with no flex-track and no custom-cut sections, here is the list of track needed:

• 6011, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 22.5º 20
• 6012, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 40 1/2" (O-81), angle 7.5º 4
• 6013, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 45" (O-90), angle 22.5º 4
• 6062, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 36" (O-72), angle 22.5º 17
• 6064, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Curve radius 31 1/2" (O-63), angle 22.5º 3

• 6015, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 1/4". 14
• 6050, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 10". 22
• 6051, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 4 1/2". 13
• 6052, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 1 3/4". 8
• 6053, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 5 1/2". 7
• 6058, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Straight 40". 2

  6081, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Crossing 45º 1

• 6024, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 20".#5 2
• 6025, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 20".#5 2
• 6072, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Left turnout 14 1/2". O-72 5
• 6073, 0 Atlas 3-Rail Nickel Silver Track, Right turnout 14 1/2". O-72 1

I increased the size of the connections between sections (circles) for visibility:

Thanks for your kind comments! Yes, you can refer folks looking for a track plan to me. I like to take on challenges that are new or interesting in some way, but I also enjoy adapting existing designs. --Ken

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something.

I also was curious what you all used for your benchwork and, if you're comfortable sharing, roughly how much the raw materials costed. I know the best benchwork allows for a person to stand on it without issues. As this is 8x14, I figure I will need a bit beefier materials, but I know little about benchwork. I'm about 150 lbs, so I want to be able to walk across the benchwork without fear of breaking anything. Overkill is fine so long as it doesn't break the bank too much, though this project will pretty much kill my wallet already, lol. Anyways, recommendations are much appreciated.

For those of you who helped kick-start this project, thank you. I know you want to see progress but a lot needs to get done first. I have measured and re-measured 3 times and the space is available. However, I'm now finding out the garage has a serious spider problem and some may be venomous, so the garage needs to be bombed a few times and the aftermath cleaned up before anything else happens. Definitely don't want any abnormally large arachnids on my layout terrorizing passengers. After that, a workbench and a couple cabinets need to be moved to the other side of the garage. Once that all gets done I just need to come up with the cash. This will be a slow but rewarding process. I will post updates on my YouTube channel as the project progresses. I really do appreciate all the help and I hope to break ground soon.

Benchwork: lots of options. Most of the track is within a 30" reach. You can see that the area under the mountain is the longest reach. So you have a couple of choices: build a benchwork strong enough to get up on for the areas beneath the yards running to the wall. Or work in a hidden access behind or inside the mountain to access the mainlines. The rest of the layout is within reach, so it does not have to be so sturdy.

My recommendation (though there are certainly other opinions and other good approaches) is to use 2" foam sheets, cut to fit, and supported with 1X4s or 2X2s. With access in the corners, open or inside the mountain. You could even use folding tables of identical height to support the foam sheets. Quick and easy and convenient.

The more expensive option is to use 2X4s and 1X4s to build a support structure for 3/4" plywood that will support your weight. As a young guy you are probably comfortable climbing on top of a table, but not an option for me.

Yes, command control wiring is easy. There has been a recommendation to wire a ground connection for command control, and if you build a mountain using wire screen for the terrain support structure, then ground that wire screen. See the other threads for more details and discussion. If you make your terrain out of foam, then you probably will not need to worry about running a ground wire (underneath the table), but it would not hurt.

@genesis99:

I believe TMCC has only the ground, if I recall correctly the actual command control signal goes through the house wiring. DCS puts the command control signal through the middle rail. I am curious when you say you have equipment that only runs command control, as far as I know both DCS and TMCC/Legacy equipped engines work with conventional control as well, the only command-control like system that doesn't support conventional is Lionchief, which doesn't use the rails at all, it is direct radio control (lionchief plus supports conventional operation).

One thing that has been suggested to me (I am in the early planning phases of my own project) is if you are even thinking of using command control, to keep that in mind even if wiring for conventional control now. So wire a ground wire under the table/track, ground metal mesh in a mountain, wire blocks with a future eye towards command control. Never hurts to read up on how it is wired, instructions can be found on the manufacturers sites or other places, worthwhile looking at how they work and wiring with an eye to that, even though you can retrofit it pretty easily.

As far as the time goes don't worry, I am in the same boat, has taken me many years just to get to the point where I am close to starting, having to get my basem*nt space ready with little spare time, lots of things to do, lack of resources, etc, so I am in the same boat. And the nice part when people put up their ideas for layouts and/or ask for help, is how it helps others. My space is roughly the same as yours (mine will be roughly 9x13), and some of the layout ideas posted in this thread have been really useful to me, my own layout design will be influenced by some of the early designs with my own variations of the elements.

GenesisFan99 posted:

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something.

Genesis;

Not sure what the product you purchased is, but you should probably check out the manual (I know, real men don't need instructions, but sometimes it does help) - most TMCC/Legacy engines I've purchased do have the capability of running in conventional mode, usually by a switch somewhere on the engine.

As for the wiring, you are correct, the Cab1 (TMCC) and Cab2 (Legacy) bases require one additional wire to one of the outside rails. But you need to keep in mind that, if you hook up TMCC/Legacy, you can not run conventional without some intervention. As my title below suggests, I admit to being a techno-peasant, so I am not the one to discuss running conventional engines on a TMCC/Legacy track (suffice to say some of the modern Lionel power sources have a switch which allows you to run TMCC/Legacy OR conventional).

On the subject of your arachnid problem, if you can't displace them, you could always build aLavalantula layout!!!

Best of luck with your new layout.

Apples55 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

Back again with more questions. I recently had a rude awakening that product I purchased may only function under command control. So after reading a bit, I'm curious how Legacy and TMCC are wired. Is it just the 1 ground wire from the base to one outside rail or are there more things involved? I thought I read somewhere Legacy and TMCC require a special wall outlet or something.

Genesis;

Not sure what the product you purchased is, but you should probably check out the manual (I know, real men don't need instructions, but sometimes it does help) - most TMCC/Legacy engines I've purchased do have the capability of running in conventional mode, usually by a switch somewhere on the engine.

As for the wiring, you are correct, the Cab1 (TMCC) and Cab2 (Legacy) bases require one additional wire to one of the outside rails. But you need to keep in mind that, if you hook up TMCC/Legacy, you can not run conventional without some intervention. As my title below suggests, I admit to being a techno-peasant, so I am not the one to discuss running conventional engines on a TMCC/Legacy track (suffice to say some of the modern Lionel power sources have a switch which allows you to run TMCC/Legacy OR conventional).

On the subject of your arachnid problem, if you can't displace them, you could always build aLavalantula layout!!!

Best of luck with your new layout.

The product I purchased was a Lionel F40PH Cabbage. Dave Olson himself ran tests for me on a unit at Lionel and determined that the locomotive was not supposed to run in conventional, as it doesn't know what direction it's traveling. Once I get the funds I won't be too concerned about conventional.

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

GenesisFan99 posted:

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

That's a new one on me... I thought all Lionel engines could run in conventional mode - live and learn!!!

As for wiring, I'm sure the more electrically inclined among us will chime in, but I think 12 gauge is a bit light for feeders. I used 16 gauge (OGR wire) on a 14'x16' layout and have had no issues.

Apples55 posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

It seems wiring isn't as complicated as I thought. Now I like overkill so as to not allow problems to arise, so I feel like 12 gauge wire would be good for feeding the track. What does everyone else think?

That's a new one on me... I thought all Lionel engines could run in conventional mode - live and learn!!!

As for wiring, I'm sure the more electrically inclined among us will chime in, but I think 12 gauge is a bit light for feeders. I used 16 gauge (OGR wire) on a 14'x16' layout and have had no issues.

Genesis;

Is your engine 6-82457??? If so, the manual says it will run in conventional - see pg. 6 of the manual. I am quite sure Dave has forgotten more about these engines than I will ever know, but maybe there was some misunderstanding.

Hi Mr. Ken-Oscale,

I'm just getting into this hobby, and looking to build a layout for my family before the holidays. Obviously with being new to this, probably wont be complete before the holidays but want to get as much done as possible. I saw this layout that you posted and I'm very interested in it.

You mentioned this could be scaled down to 7.5 X 12, while still using 060 & 072 radius Fastrack curves, which would be perfect for the spare room I will be building this in. Would it be possible to get a copy of the scaled down version of this plan, along with listing of Fastrack that is needed?

If you have any suggestions/tips on building this plan or any other facets of this hobby, I'm all ears as I mentioned, I'm new to this.

Thank you and have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving!

Steven -

Welcome Steven. I'm not Ken but I'm a life-long O gauger living in the Land of No Basem*nts and I feel compelled to weigh in. It's my opinion that if you're building a spare room-sized railroad and you want something that will provide varied operation long-term, you would be better off using sharper curves. IMO in a room that size, probably no bigger than O42.

It's true that you won't be able to run many of the coveted scale locos like Berkshires and articulateds. (And that might actually save you money in the long run!) But if you do build with O60 and O72, the only track plan that will work is some variation of a double-oval. And really, just an extended circle, because curves that wide won't leave much left for the straightaways. If you just want a stubby test loop to run and photograph trains from a closet collection, I guess that's ok. But for all of the money, time, and effort involved in constructing a good layout, I strongly encourage you to imagine the more interactive track plans you would be able to build by using O31 or O42 instead.

Years ago I would have endorsed the wider curves because the scale-sized locos tended to run more smoothly than the toy trains we grew up with. Now, we have RailKing with PS3 and LionChief Plus, so that's no longer the case. This hobby is full of compromises, notably the third rail itself. And if you must have a "scale model," many switchers, Moguls, Ten Wheelers, etc., are scale-sized and will still run on sharper curves. Everything about tradtional-sized trains (including Plasticville buildings, shorter rolling stock, etc.) is optimized for a smaller space. Honestly, if I hadn't been in O gauge all my life, I would build in S because 3/16" scale is still big enough to see and work on, but closer to optimum for an 8' x 12' space.

Everyone brings their own experience to the hobby. For years I participated in modular public displays. Personally, I'm done with round-and-round running. Some people just enjoy building layouts; for me it's about what you can do with the trains after it's built. I'm not going to put a lot of time and effort into something that's going to leave me bored and collect dust after the first 6 months. It's your time and money, think hard!

Hi Ted,

Thank you for your reply and for welcoming me to this forum. Yes, I understand your point of view and considered what you suggested, and also considered S scale as well as HO, in the idea of getting the most out of an 8X12 layout. Still, I keep coming back to the fact that I do like the 18" Aluminum Passenger Cars from K-Line and the Scale GG1.

Yes, for some, the double or even triple extended circle may be boring and may not get complete satisfaction from it, but, I came across this layout that Ken-Oscale had posted and I thought it would be a good place for me to start, and it uses the 060 & 072 curves needed to run the scale GG1 and 18" passenger cars. Perhaps down the road when more space is available I can go into something bigger and more complex, but for the time being this seemed like a good fit for me.

@PennDoggieExpress I think that is a great plan designed by @Ken-Oscale that will suit your desires. There are about as many ways to enjoy the hobby as there are hobbyists.

Welcome to the hobby and the O Gauge Railroading Forum!! Bring up any questions you have on this thread or start your own threads with short, but descriptive titles for specific needs.